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Originally posted by KGBMan: Egor, Yes, most Americans, even atheist donate. Because they were born and raised here. Here is the most religious society of the western world. Because of that - donations are the norm, the way of life, it's part of society's behavior "DO's".

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You may be right.. I don't have any convincing arguments to justify my opinion, to be honest. Sapho thinks its comfortable life for generations. Whatever. It doesn't matter to those receiving aid. And I would argue that the cause is simply the ability to put yourself in the shoes of whom you are helping. As long as wee agree that this takes place, regrdless of cause, my job and Pom's in this topic is done ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: :-) neeeeh:-) i aren't providing no therapy for free!!!:-)

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So, additionally to being an expert in the Russian Area Studies, you also hold a Ph.D. in Psychology or, perhaps, an M.D. in Psychiatry?!

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by pomidorchik:

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Originally posted by Mouse: Unless there will be a real/operational legal system, unless people there will trust that system.)

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наморозила - хрен проссать.

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Чья бы корова мычала.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: when i use your restroom and see crap all over the wall, i don't care if that was your kid who pooped in the wrong direction.

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Ну вот и хорошо, что хоть сам "просрался." Главное, сам не забудь убирать тот туалет, которым пользуешься.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Sappho:

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Originally posted by pomidorchik: when i use your restroom and see crap all over the wall, i don't care if that was your kid who pooped in the wrong direction.

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Ну вот и хорошо, что хоть сам "просрался." Главное, сам не забудь убирать тот туалет, которым пользуешься.

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Это поздравления помидорy с выиграным аргументом? Или просто так нынче аргументируют? Кстати, "нынче", чем отличается от "сейчас", и "теперь"? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: My argument was that, if (hypothetically) you get 10% of your donations back, and that was the true reson, people in other countries could just donate 10% less. All else being equal, the math is solid here :) My argument is that there is more than math involved. For reasons that you don't like hearing :)

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People in other countries have LESS. The US encouragement of their citizens to donate is one, maybe even a small one too, but still a reason behind the Americans' donations. This is all that I am saying. What do you think are the reasons as to why Americans donate more than let's say Russians? Because they are better people? Because they have a bigger heart? Because they are more compassionate? These emotional reasons were brought up by Pomidorchik, and this is where the entire argument began.

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Originally posted by Egor: No. I am saying that things that cause people to donate or volunteer are surprisingly not a function of wealth. In the US, that is. Look at habitat for humanity, for example. Look at Peace Corps. Most volunteers are poor students, or at best middle class.

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OK, and I can tell you that I know of people in Russia who do this kind of work volunteerly. After the collpase of the USSR, Russia has had to reinvent itself, and it still is in this reinventing process, and will be for years to come. American government faultly ASSumed that as soon as the Soviet wall comes own, Russia will immediately open up to their capitalistic ideas, and will become a land of opportunity for the foreign investors, etc. Ridiculous assumption! It takes TIME, especially in the country that is as large as Russia, in the country, that went through HELL in the last century. Why does everyone overlook all of the turmoil that Russian people went through during the last century? I am not excusing anything, but my god, can people be realistic?! There are people in Russia who give everything they have (even if it is not much) to others, they open their homes to the kids who live on the streets, they spend their own money to feed homeless. It will take years for the Russian government to develop a system, similar to the one in the US, the primary function of which would be to oversee the non-profit organizations, etc. Today, it's single individuals in Russia who try and contribute solely out of their compassion and kindness.

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Originally posted by Egor: Yes, this is a contributing factor to why the wealthy help. I made no arguments about countless contributing factors, I could list them here ad nauseum. But this one does not apply to those who are not well off.

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Middle class, which constitutes of people who aren't well off but live comfortably, in the US is much, MUCH larger than in Russia. I doubt that the number of poor people in the US who donate is large. So, the "well off" argument still applies. You give only when you have something to give.

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Originally posted by Egor: Allow me, very carefully, to bring up Russia You got a pretty large number of people that are well off. Their descendants are going to fit what you just described - not only well off, but well off for a long time. What kind of values do you expect from these "new russians" once they aren't "new"? Taking into account, how this generation is being raised, and with what values? Honestly, I would expect more alturism from the russian middle class eventually. This is just an opinion, I will not defend it, here, and it is unnecessary for my points.

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You must be kidding. Russian population is roughly 180 million, if I am not mistaken. What constitutes the "large number of people that are well off" out of these 180 million people? The "new Russian" is a class that arose in the mid 90s in Russia, so it's still very new! These people are mainly poorly educated and with no class, so to speak, so they are relishing in the newly discovered materialistic goods, and so are their kids. As far as the middle class goes, Russian "middle class" makes enough money to survive on month-to-month basis. When Russian "middle class" fits the western definition of such, then people who belong to this class will start to enjoy donating money. Again, it all goes back to the financial/economic side of the whole argument.

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Originally posted by Egor: Allow me to humbly suggest that you have just contradiceted yourself. :) Only because you probably don't realize that Americans get purely personal pleasure from alturism. Which is the cause of it, no matter who does it an in what country. Yes, they care about others. So does any adequate person n any country (why I disagreed with the the suggestion that russians have no compassion).

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Where exactly did I contradict myself? From the very beginning, I've said that Americans, after having received pleasure out of the owning of the materialistic goods, are now deriving pleasure out of donating/helping others. It's all about human nature. Thus, give Russians the time to indulge into having stuff for a hundred or maybe even less years, and you'll see them being just as altruistic because materialism is not a source of perpetual pleasure, as the richest of the rich have discovered long ago.

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Originally posted by Egor: But what good is passive compassion?[/b]

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In the end, it's not about compassion, it's all about pleasure.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Egor: Disagreed based on observation. Most Americans I know, donate/volunteer to variyng extents. Most of them atheist.

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Based on your intellect, reflected in your posts, I can conclude that most of the Americans you know do not represent the majority of the US population (which is a good thing, in my opinion). Most people in this country are religious, and many are conservative Christians. So, KGB's argument is a valid one. A lot of donations/money comes out of the pockets of this layer of American population solely based on their religious principles/beliefs or on their fear to go to hell :) Since compassion is a big part of the relious world, you could say that they donate out of their compassion, but ...

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Egor: Sapho thinks its comfortable life for generations. Whatever. It doesn't matter to those receiving aid. And I would argue that the cause is simply the ability to put yourself in the shoes of whom you are helping. As long as wee agree that this takes place, regrdless of cause, my job and Pom's in this topic is done

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1) I think that donations are proportionate to "how much one has." 2) Agreed, to those receiving aid it does not matter. 3) The cause is purely economical and selfish. 4) I don't know what your job was in this topic, but Pomidorchik made some appalling, arrogant, and ignorant comments/statements about Russian people, which he tried to back up with a lot of hot air.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Egor: [quote]Originally posted by Sappho: Или просто так нынче аргументируют?

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Каков привет, таков ответ.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Egor: [quote]Originally posted by Sappho: Кстати, "нынче", чем отличается от "сейчас", и "теперь"? [img]

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"Нынче" - это то же самое, что и "теперь," следовательно отличается от слова "сейчас" тем же. Слово это устаревшее, так же как и слово "сей."

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

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Originally posted by Sappho:

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Originally posted by Egor: [quote]Originally posted by Sappho: Кстати, "нынче", чем отличается от "сейчас", и "теперь"?

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"Нынче" - это то же самое, что и "теперь," следовательно отличается от слова "сейчас" тем же. Слово это устаревшее, так же как и слово "сей."

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А "теперь" в старину было передовое что-ли? из любимого.. Мир опустел... Теперь куда же Меня б ты вынес, океан? Судьба людей повсюду та же: Где капля блага, там на страже Уж просвещенье иль тиран. А.С.Пушкин, 1824 при другом ритме, написал бы "нынче" (ныне), и никто бы не заметил. Ты разницу объясни. Общатся с вами буду грамотнее Кстати, у Пушкина, данный пример неординарен.. "теперь" в те времена означало обычно современное "сейчас", а "ныне" - современное "теперь". Пример к тому, что если сам Пушкин не следовал этим "прaвилам", нафиг они вообще нужны иностранцу? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: Общатся с вами буду грамотнее

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Мне от вашего безграмотного общения ни тепло, ни холодно :)

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato

Zanudno, odnako, i zlo k tomu zhe....

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Как легко, против нудности, действовать такими же методами. Чрезмерную pазговорчивость - как рукой сняло.. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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Originally posted by Egor: Чрезмерную pазговорчивость - как рукой сняло..

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Не у всех на чрезмерную разговорчивость есть столько времени, как у вас.

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"Some say the Muses are nine: how careless! Look, there's Sappho too, from Lesbos, the tenth." Plato