Sappho:

In my opinion, being open minded and viewing divorce as a viable option is a good thing to have happened in this society.

The point I was trying to make is that there is an emerging trend in which people view divorce more than just a "viable option."  It seems it has become more of an "easy way out" for people when they come across discomforts caused by any normal marriage (I'm not talking about couples who have issues like infidelity...  that's key.. talking about the realization that your partner is not perfect and having to deal with each other's bad habits, pet peeves, etc.).  Resentment slowly builds from little, stupid arguments until one morning both wake up scratching their head, and wondering why they ever got into this mess.  This is the breaking point.  Not many want to work things out from here.  

Long story short, it appears that divorce has become so acceptable in our society that people marry without understanding the full extent of the commitment they are making and divorce when things get a little sour.  It's just easier to start over than to try to fix issues...  

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

Bagel Roll,   I have a few thoughts about your last sentence, which is very true, but only reflects the symptoms of a larger disease.

Why do people think it's easier to start over than to try to fix issues?

Selfishness.   Instant Gratification.  Lack of any skill at diplomacy.   Lack of willingness to compromise.   Always used to getting their way.   AKA  we raised a generation of spoiled brats and now they act like spoiled brats while they are married, ending up divorced.   IMHO

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

MK, I agree.  I think it will take less than half a dozen generations for us to hit rock bottom.  Most likely nothing will change until that happens...  But you know something, I have a glimmer of hope that we will realize where this is heading and grab on to the reins of sanity before it's too late.  It will stop being fun.  People will miss traditional values.  Expectations will change.  It may take a few centuries, but we'll get back to the basics...  

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

Bagel Roll:

MK, I agree.  I think it will take less than half a dozen generations for us to hit rock bottom.  Most likely nothing will change until that happens...  But you know something, I have a glimmer of hope that we will realize where this is heading and grab on to the reins of sanity before it's too late.  It will stop being fun.  People will miss traditional values.  Expectations will change.  It may take a few centuries, but we'll get back to the basics...  

Why do you think the traditional path is the sane one?  Unless we are Amish, we don't reject all technology not used traditionally.  Maybe our forefathers weren't any wiser about relationships than they were about electromagnetics?  Maybe we are simply evolving and will eventually shun the idea of marriage completely.  Maybe that isn't even a bad thing.  

Those traditional values come at a hefty price.  There are some scary trends and people out there pushing for the basics.  I can elaborate if anyone cares.

Just some thoughts....

 

Leah:

Why do you think the traditional path is the sane one? 

In short, because I didn't follow it.

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

Here are the issues -

1) As traditional family values erode, we are heading towards a society where more, and then most, kids will grow up in "broken" homes.

2) As societal and legal norms make it easier to divorce, more people find it "acceptable" to divorce.

3) So what?

Regarding broken homes, what's better?:  A child being raised in a home where both parents hate each other, and make life miserable for the child?

Or a home where the parents divorce, maybe they learned something, and end up with the right person so that the child can see how parents 'should' treat their significant other.

The real issue to me is whether people learn from the mistakes.  some do, some don't.  Those that do make a good case divorce - nobody should be forced to live miserably with a spouse they hate.

THe problem I see is that lots of people don't learn and so nobody wins. 

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

In Europe, they already have a solution – couples live together for years, have children, but they are not married and have no intentions of doing so.

Recently, I read an article about a woman, who lives with her boyfriend. They live here, in US. The guy wants to merry her, but she does not understand why for him the peace of paper is more important then her love, why for him act of marriage represents stronger commitment. Nobody from their families understands her motives – they all want wedding.

The mega million wedding industry, and legal system, and church make people think, that the marriage is the right thing, it is good for the children. There are some rules about engagement, wedding. And we call that tradition, and it makes us sad, that it could die. And at the same time they made a divorce very acceptable – they all again want our money. Now it is ok to be divorced, even for politicians.

So, who is creating and breaking ‘traditions’? Actually, we are. I guess it is part of a progress. At the beginning of a 20-th century they did not like automobiles. Did they stop auto industry from development?

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Are we sure we are not underestimating the meaning of a stable family unit on human civilization in general?  How can we use personal experiences, and analogies to things like automobiles, not knowing if these are actually analogous?  I notice that most people will take their personal opinions, and find lots of completely weak arguments to justify these opinions, and nothing more.

Study this objectively, from the standpoint of sociology, human evolution, psychology,how culture is passed down to offspring, the effects of a broken home on children, crime, education.  Gangs replace homes in passing down values.  It's not that complicated.  Maybe we can survive this in terms of not becoming extinct, but we'll be a different animal.  Reproducing like pigeons   That may be fine in a grand scheme of things, I don't know, I am not god.  But in my personal opinion, it kinda sux.  We've come too far to regress.  It would be a great shame, and most definitely a regression of what has made us a civilized species.  We already see it now in the demographics of western nations suffering from moral relativism on this issue.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

I agree completely, Egor.   I think the idea of marriage is seconded only by a person's ability to obtain employment and thus, provide food and shelter for himself, as the cause of a stable society.  Marriage has been completely underestimated for the benefit it creates in avoiding crime, providing stimulus for education, human evolution from childhood into adulthood, etc.... A complete and happy family home is the perfect unit for raising children.   In general.......  (for the benefit of those here who just HATE generalizations.)

 

Another comment just popped up in my head.   God created marriage.  He has done a great job at everything else, so why not here? 

Also, look at what single promiscuity has brought into the world?   STD's  AIDS   not to mention all the problems which evolve from having many multiples of lovers.   Monogomy is still the best way.  IMHO

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

mkgilstrap:

Another comment just popped up in my head.   God created marriage. 

I must missed that event. When did that happen?

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Right on.  We disagree on what force "created" marriage, but either one is a respectable force

James asked earlier something I hear all the time - is it better to be in a home where parents fight, are not 100% happy, or whatever, than be missing a stable home altogether?  I'd say - most definitely.  All of us who were raised in stable homes saw arguments, saw disagreements.. some more than others.  What's wrong with being exposed to reality of life?  Maybe, among other things, it taught us to have realistic expectations and and definitions of things like happiness.  Definitions that can actually come true, instead of illusions people chase after their whole lives and then die alone.  Happiness is not absence of family arguments.  Perfect mate is not absence of frustrating incomaptibilities.  People who know that - end up happy in a marriage.  And increase the odds of their kids doing the same by passing down these values. 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Egor:

All of us who were raised in stable homes saw arguments, saw disagreements.. some more than others.  What's wrong with being exposed to reality of life?  Maybe, among other things, it taught us to have realistic expectations and and definitions of things like happiness.  Definitions that can actually come true, instead of illusions people chase after their whole lives and then die alone.  Happiness is not absence of family arguments. 

I agree if we are truly talking about a "stable home" where a couple that actually wants to stay together and the parents love each other.  I think we all know what kinds of lessons will be learned by a child who lives with parents whose relationship is so damaged that it is void of anything positive and verbal/physical abuse are a daily reality.  The problem for these couples is knowing at what point a home is no longer stable.

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

Absolutely.  Its about where we draw the boundary between the two.  And that's been a moving target for cultural reasons, as you said earlier.  There's nothing to test against, really, and instant gratification and illusions of happiness really do cause an attention deficit disorder of sorts.  If that makes sense.  In the middle of an argument you can temporarily feel, in anger,  that you would be better off divorced or with someone else.  Its sometimes true, sometimes not.  And on top of that, what's best for your children, is a separate argument altogether.  Its been mixed up into one because we are mostly a selfish and individualist people.  In unprecedented ways.  And that could be ok actually, if we were able to make judgements correctly.  But people can't even do that, in the scizophrenic pursuit of illusions, everyone loses.

P.S. in a situation w abuse, I agree completely with the other side here, and agree in every case without acceptions.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

I agree also that abuse breaks all commitments.   In an abusive situation, couples should part without exception.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Egor - when I read your posts about the reality of life, I wonder what reality you have actually lived through in terms of marriage and divorce.  Prove me wrong, but have you been married, say 10 years like me, and gone through an ugly divorce in order to intelligently talk about this issue?

And mk - having been in a bad marriage that ended in divorce - I would think you could shed a bit more light on what it's like to suffer through that painful period of suddenly realizing it can't possibly work out, but utterly afraid of the consequences of actually going through with the divorce.

There is nothing black and white about this.  But to get up on a pedastol and talk about people needing to stay together for family values is ridiculous unless you have ever experienced watching a good marriage go from good to bad to worse to unsavable, and wondering when the train wreck will end and if you can ever be happy again....

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."