No one is suggesting divorce should be illegal..  Sometimes its warranted, and I will judge whatever I damn well please, and so will everyone else. Only way to avoid it is not sharing personal information

But this is not even that, I said nothing about you specifically. This is just social commentary - we all have a pedestal by having a right to an opinion.  That being said, I can't say whether or not divorce is warranted in every individual case, I don't even believe people are being honest about it with me or themselves, plus I have incomplete information, plus I may be plain wrong. I'll leave everyone's personal cases to shrinks, counselors,  Maury Povich, whatever. 

I care about the social phenomenon.  numbers... I am all about numbers.  And outcomes of it.  Basically what we've been discussing for the last page.  I don't have time to micromanage anyone's life but my own, so your fear, James,  is unwarranted

As far as managing my own life, my belief is that some women who posted here, will be divorced at some point.  They are out of the question for me.  I may be wrong, but I am confident enough to know what belief systems I am loooking for in a woman, quality of her character, ability to objectively see what she's done with her life so far, and walk that fine line of no regrets and critical self-analysis. Plus things like how she handles conflict, etc, the list is really infinite - women contain a whole universe of information in their personalities that most men have forgotten how to tap. Obviously you can't tell it all from forum posts, but I date women for years before the thought of marriage even enters my mind.  Until I know her better than i know myself.  Because I know what goes on out there!

I can't honestly say I'll never be divorced, but should it happen, it will be analyzed according to our common values and beliefs, and if its the right thing to do for everyone involved (if there are children, their interests come way before mine, I'll be just fine, and happy, trust me)  And I am fine with all that.  Judge away.

Egor:

 

As far as managing my own life, my belief is that some women who posted here, will be divorced at some point.  They are out of the question for me.  I may be wrong, but I am confident enough to know what belief systems I am loooking for in a woman, quality of her character, ability to objectively see what she's done with her life so far, and walk that fine line of no regrets and critical self-analysis. Plus things like how she handles conflict, etc, the list is really infinite - women contain a whole universe of information in their personalities that most men have forgotten how to tap. Obviously you can't tell it all from forum posts, but I date women for years before the thought of marriage even enters my mind.  Until I know her better than i know myself.  Because I know what goes on out there!

 

Ok, let me make sure I am understanding this.  After all, my defective character, etc. could have affected my reading comprehension....  You seem to be saying that divorced women are out of the question for you, because you are looking for a woman with higher quality of character than someone who divorced... also objectivity about her life, no regrets but an understanding of her faults, ability to handle conflict, etc. and you think divorced women have none of these.  Do I have it about right?

No, Leah, if you didn't understand, James definitely won't..  And I tried so hard.

Nowhere did I say divorce is always unwarranted.  I don't think anyone ever said that.

Bagel Roll:

Long story short, it appears that divorce has become so acceptable in our society that people marry without understanding the full extent of the commitment they are making and divorce when things get a little sour.  It's just easier to start over than to try to fix issues...

That's why I say rule out marriage, and there will be no need for divorce!

I don't claim to know what's best for everyone. I believe some people enjoy the idea of being married to another, of being a "family" unit, of having a friend and a partner for life. Nevertheless, I disagree with those who dictate these principles unto everyone else. That's why I am against "tax breaks" for married people only. What if someone else does not wish to marry?! Why can't his/her choice be respected and rewarded?! The family unit is the very basic unit of the society ... blah, blah, blah. This unit has been changing, evolving since humans existed on this planet. And I tend to agree with those who think that in the future, people will simply live together, if they choose so, without any contracts.

Once again, I stand for an individual's choice to lead his/her life the way he/she wants to lead it, as we only live once. Unfortunately, this ideal has not been reached yet, as many people choose to live their lives according to other people's rules, views, tastes, fashions, traditions, etc. Not that there is anything wrong with it, but what's wrong with wanting to lead your own life differently from others?
 

mkgilstrap:

Another comment just popped up in my head.   God created marriage.  He has done a great job at everything else, so why not here?

Tak i xochetsya skazat' ... pooped up in your head not "popped up in your head." Mkgilstrap, please, forgive my play on words but I couldn't help it. As far as "god" creating anything, someone is yet to prove scientifically that "god" exists and he/she indeed created everything. Hence, your argument is based on your personal belief, which disqualifies it from being called an "argument," as one cannot build an argument based on personal beliefs and tastes. It is not "god exists because I believe he does," but "I believe that god exists." These are two different statements.

mkgilstrap:

Also, look at what single promiscuity has brought into the world?   STD's  AIDS   not to mention all the problems which evolve from having many multiples of lovers.   Monogomy is still the best way.  IMHO

Monogomy is a word that's been popularized in the 20th century, and not even in all civilizations yet. Historically, monogomy has not been practiced. Men had more than one wife and during various periods of time were encouraged to have prostitutes even by church establishments. Whether or not monogamy is the best way is greatly arguable. Furthermore, being married one or two times does not mean that he or she only had one or two partners their whole lives. Homosexuality is also not a 21st century phenomenon, as it existed for as long as human race did. Thus, STD's existed as well, but not having the knowledge and the technology of the 21st century, people of the 4th century, for instance, simply died at a much younger age. So, we are much better off than our predecessors, given our techological advances; and at the same time, we are just like them.
 

Sappho,  fine,  I believe God exists.   Frankly, so does most of the world.   Besides, God offers his own proof that He exists in the things He has created, they are there for all to see.  Some see evolution, some see divine creation.   Each has to choose how they view those things around them, i.e. the animal, plants, stars, humans, etc...  I agree with you that  Nobody can tell another what or how they see. 

However,  I agree totally with you that a person has  a right to choose how to live their own lives.  Far be it from me to tell anyone how to live or what choices to make, or even what values to have.   However, time has whittled away at some of the more radical ideas that have come along in the last 2500 years.   For instance, we do not tolerate certain behavoir as a society. Some ideas have survived, such as the idea that the smartest among us are usually chosen to contribute or even to lead our civilization (in general ) .  So , the idea that a family unit of mother, father, children been tried and true as usually the best way to raise children.  Now, we all know there are exceptions to this generalization.  We have elaborated hitherto.  So, going your own way in life, values, character, etc... is indeed a choice people make but it also sometimes has consequences to the individual which cannot be escaped.  Now, if a person chooses to accept the risk of those consequences as a result of the value/lifestyle they choose to live, then I say, live and let live.   Problem is, some people  accept those consequences and some don't. 

I am not being judgemental, I just believe in individual responsibility.  Therefore, I often choose to conform.  But sometimes, not.

OMG. It's is so simple: find someone who shares your values and stick with him/her (that's the most difficult part though, it's no different than looking for a good job, and who has time for this nowadays, so most of ppl are stuck with what came along one day).

It's better to find something that you're compatible with (at least 70% compatible) than live with a person who doesn't share your values and morals or try to change him/her. Simple. 

Be yourself - no matter what they say (c)

U must have heard of this website I bet:

www.nomarriage.com

or at least I can clearly see you among those who "pro" this website.

 Though I have to admit - it is beyond cynical sometimes. And I am not biased (cuz I am not an American woman). One one hand - the facts about "another SUV", "Prozac", permanent depressions, growing big asses - are so true. On the other hand, women of the "3-d world" are not angels at all or at least not after getting a GC. So I was disturbed, honestly. The only thing I can pray for - I am fit and not on "Prozac", but jeez, please help me to avoid this bitter bunch of so called men, who posted there.  

It is true that I have read this website, but i must say mostly for it's humorous side.   There are way too many generalizations that go to the extreme end made by the author there. (nomarriage.com)   He simply goes to far in most of his statements.  I have no doubt that it is patently untrue to characterize all american women as not worth marrying.  It is equally untrue to characterize any foreign woman as superior to an american woman.   All cultures have good and bad.  I don't want anyone to think I characterize any and all women like this.  I have simply stated what happened to me and what I discovered as the difference between my american wife and my ukrainian wife. I would not venture much beyond that.

Egor raises a good point in this regard however by stating that the odds of another man having exactly the opposite experience is pretty good.  This point is valid, though I haven't heard anyone put his actual experience in this regard forward by sharing such a story with us.

So, Alina, I am not too "pro" on this site even though my experience parallels the gist of this site.   Nomarriage.com is just too extreme for me, and I think patently unfair to pretty much all american women.  I agree with you, written by a bunch of bitter american men.   My being individually bitter cannot be put into the same category.  I don't make such extreme generalizations...

Ok. Heh, there is hope in this world then.

Some of my male friends made this website a bible. It is really agressive and honestly, guys, if we want to "start the war" - we can make our own. Like: "Who needs a man nowadays anyway if we build our careers, make money and enjoy our free time without "family duties"??? There's a variety of "implements" in every stag shop, there are sperm banks and I am not mentioning the quantity (and the variety) of boys in any club - we can change them every week and then gvie references to each other".

Does it sound cynical? Yes, it does.

But again, it is just a reply to the attitude.

The best way to avoid the war is not to get involved though. :) Unless your territory is invaded

 God didn't invent marriage - man did.  Man invented marriage, and anything invented by man is not perfect. 

I want to dive deeper into Sapho's comments (since I can't dive deeper into Sappho):

That's why I say rule out marriage, and there will be no need for divorce!    IT IS TRUE THAT THERE IS A 100% NON-DIVORCE RATE AMONG THOSE THAT DON'T GET MARRIED.  TOO MANY PEOPLE GET MARRIED BEFORE THEY KNOW WHO THEY ARE, OR WHO THEIR PARTNER IS.  WHY?  BECAUSE SOCIETY TELLS US WE ARE SUPPOSED TO GET MARRIED.  BECAUSE WOMEN HAVE TICKING BABY CLOCKS THAT MAKE THEM WANT TO HAVE BABIES.  BECAUSE MEN DON'T KNOW ANY BETTER.  LOL

I don't claim to know what's best for everyone. I believe some people enjoy the idea of being married to another, of being a "family" unit, of having a friend and a partner for life. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE MARRIED TO HAVE A FRIEND AND PARTNER FOR LIFE.  I THINK IT'S GREAT THAT PEOPLE GET MARRIED, BUT PEOPLE NEED TO GO IN WITH THEIR EYES WIDE OPEN.  INSTEAD THEY GO INTO MARRIAGE WITHOUT A CLUE WHAT 'FOREVER' MEANS.  WHY RUSH TO GET MARRIED IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT FOREVER.   

Nevertheless, I disagree with those who dictate these principles unto everyone else.  EVERYBODY'S OPINION IS BASED ON THEIR EXPERIENCE OR LACK OF EXPERIENCE - FREEDOM OF SPEECH MEANS WE HAVE TO BE PATIENT, VERY PATIENT, WITH THE INEXPERIENCED FOLKS.  THE RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS ARE EVEN WORSE.

That's why I am against "tax breaks" for married people only. What if someone else does not wish to marry?! Why can't his/her choice be respected and rewarded?!   DON'T GET ME STARTED.

 The family unit is the very basic unit of the society ... blah, blah, blah. This unit has been changing, evolving since humans existed on this planet. And I tend to agree with those who think that in the future, people will simply live together, if they choose so, without any contracts.   WHEN CAN YOU AND I START ON THIS? 

Once again, I stand for an individual's choice to lead his/her life the way he/she wants to lead it, as we only live once. Unfortunately, this ideal has not been reached yet, as many people choose to live their lives according to other people's rules, views, tastes, fashions, traditions, etc. RESULT? WOMEN ON PROZAC AND MEN THAT DRINK TOO MUCH (EQUIVALENT OF PROZAC FOR MEN).  YOU HAVE TO PUT YOUR OWN HAPPINESS FIRST TO MAKE OTHERS HAPPY.  NOT, BE MISERABLE, AND MAKE OTHERS MISERABLE TOO.

Not that there is anything wrong with it, but what's wrong with wanting to lead your own life differently from others?  OOOOHHHHH BABY........

We believe in what we want to believe. It would be nice if oranges wouldn't get involved/mixed with apples though.

But sometimes oranges will pretend to be apples to get laid or apples pretend to be oranges to get a certain lifestyle they can't provide themselves.

So there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Just be honest, go out there and say something like: "hey, I do not believe in these values (read the "speech" above), besides I am not an Arabic prince and I have to pay a huge childsupport, so I am not planning anything serios".

And see what happens after.

mkgilstrap:

Sappho,  fine,  I believe God exists.   Frankly, so does most of the world.   Besides, God offers his own proof that He exists in the things He has created, they are there for all to see.  Some see evolution, some see divine creation.   Each has to choose how they view those things around them, i.e. the animal, plants, stars, humans, etc...  I agree with you that  Nobody can tell another what or how they see.

I am one of the last people to march together with the rest of the world, just because they are marching. As far as any proof goes, I am yet to see the proof of his/her/its existence in all the destruction that's going on, in senseless deaths of millions of people, in natural disasters, in horrid illnesses, and the list goes on. Thus far I see some patterns randomly mixed in a bowl, which we call life.

The biggest problem that I have with religion is its emphasis on afterlife. Who the hell knows and who the hell cares, I ask?! Evolution, on the other hand, puts more value into our human, physical existence. If you stop to think that life was created from a single cell, that it took billions of years to create an alive organism, then destroying this organism all of a sudden appears to have a different price tag attached to it.

A year or two ago, I heard a story of a man passing. Without any particular desire to know the details of his death, I was "forced" to hear the story. One  Sunday afternoon, a man was driving down the road. He saw that someone's car had broken down, so he stopped to help. As he was getting out of his car, another car rushed by, kicking him and killing him. "What a honorable way to go!" - I heard the storyteller, who happened to be a Christian, exclaim. "What an ironic and rather stupid way to go," I thought to myself. The life was lost, quickly and meaninglessly, in my opinion. In the eyes of the storyteller, the man was already with God, celebrating the last good deed he was trying to achieve on this planet. No further comments.

mkgilstrap:

However, time has whittled away at some of the more radical ideas that have come along in the last 2500 years.   For instance, we do not tolerate certain behavoir as a society. Some ideas have survived, such as the idea that the smartest among us are usually chosen to contribute or even to lead our civilization (in general ) .  So , the idea that a family unit of mother, father, children been tried and true as usually the best way to raise children.

OK, in my opinion, the idea of human relationships has been evolving and is still evolving. The family unit, as you see it, did not exist until the recent centuries and not in all societies. Furthermore, even today, the family unit is understood very differently in various cultures. For instance, a Kazakh man who recently came to the US to earn some money, left his wife, whom he stole and later paid for with sheep, etc., for his 5 brothers to take care of. He left his country, his family unit, which cosists not only of his wife and children but also of his immediate family, ensuring that his wife did not sleep around by telling his brothers to satisfy her sexual needs. Now, does this idea of a family unit work for you? Similar ideas have been practiced for many centuries, when a family unit consisted not of a wife and a husband but of the entire village. Partnership, or your view of the family, is a very modern take on human relationships, on family units, which has yet to reach every corner of this world. Need there be said anything else?

mkgilstrap:

So, going your own way in life, values, character, etc... is indeed a choice people make but it also sometimes has consequences to the individual which cannot be escaped. Now, if a person chooses to accept the risk of those consequences as a result of the value/lifestyle they choose to live, then I say, live and let live. Problem is, some people  accept those consequences and some don't.

In general, people don't like responsibilities because they create more stress, being one of the reasons, and it applies to any situation, not just marriage. Take a look at small children. How many kids do you know who readily and gladly accept responsibility for their broken toy, for the bond fire in your living room, or for Timmy's black eye? If they don't have anyone close to blame, they will blame their imaginary friend, anyone in order to escape responsibility! And what do you do? You teach them how to be responsible. So, one can argue that human nature is escapist!