Exactly. The biggest problem is the confusion created by media spin. Spin started by liberals, but used today by everyone. Closing the borders to illegal movement IS NOT an anti-immigration policy. In fact, immigration quotas could then be increased to offset the loss in labor. That would make all sides happy sounds like. The biggest lie propogated onto america is that a secure border is an anti-immigration stance. Do not believe the lies! :) they got like 90% of america convinced already. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor: Exactly. The biggest problem is the confusion created by media spin. Spin started by liberals, but used today by everyone. Closing the borders to illegal movement IS NOT an anti-immigration policy. In fact, immigration quotas could then be increased to offset the loss in labor. That would make all sides happy sounds like. The biggest lie propogated onto america is that a secure border is an anti-immigration stance. Do not believe the lies! :) they got like 90% of america convinced already. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

You have to be pragmatic when discussing borders. Their is no way to keep illegal immigrants out of this country or to completely secure those borders. We should certainly keep out immigrants who are intent on criminal activity in the US. Other illegal immigrants simply want to have a better life and are willing to otherwise obey the law. These immigrants general take jobs that Americans won't take and they eventually start businesses, (provided that they become legal) which produces more jobs for Americans and strengthens the economy. I am opposed to the current legislation and I am glad to see the Republicans back off on some key elements of that legislation. Borders serve more a political purpose, like one nation's army crossing the border into another nation for example. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

"jobs that Americans won't take" Making such a statement is the direct result of brainwashing. Mestiza, you keep repeating this phrase; let me ask you - did you think of it yourself or is this what you were instructed to think by your television/newspaper/family/etc.? What do you mean by "jobs that Americans won't take"? Which jobs? Picking cotton? Growing tomatoes? Cleaning up shit at the dog pound? I'm just curious - out of 250 million Americans, how many did you poll to find out that they wouldn't take these jobs? Don't you realize, Mestiza, that with the most basic, simple knowledge of economics you would understand that there will never be jobs that 'no one will take'. Do you remember, a long time ago, one of the 'lowest' kinds of jobs was the profession of garbage man. Maybe your mom, like mine, used to say to you, "get an education or else you'll end up being a garbage man". This was because at that time, it was a dirty, filthy job that paid very little. So little in fact, that no one wanted to do it anymore and a shortage occured. And what happened next? You guessed it - garbage men were suddenly in demand. Being in demand gave them power to demand higher wages. Today, in fact, many garbage men (or sanitation engineers) make around 40-60k with good benefits. And sanitation companies are doing as well as ever. Mestiza, please stop repeating slogans and start thinking for yourself. I see you talking about stocks and CEO's here, so I am quite surprised that you utter such foolish statements over and over. Remember, there will never be jobs that no one wants. Most people are willing to do any kind of job if the money is right. Regarding another foolish statement I heard in this topic, "Mexicans put cheap food on our table"; here is another case of a slogan being repeated over and over by mindless parrots. You're evaluating front-end benefits. What about back-end losses? The people that give you 'cheap food on the table' are the same people that take money from that big pot you call TAXes without putting anything in themselves. And don't kid yourselves; non-legal immigrants draw benefits in this country, ranging from obtaining driver licenses to medical treatment. (If you're too stupid to figure out why obtaining driver licenses results in drawing from the TAX pot, think about the people that work at the dirver license office, and think about the service you receive from them and who is paying for you to receive the servce.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza: You have to be pragmatic when discussing borders. Their is no way to keep illegal immigrants out of this country or to completely secure those borders. We should certainly keep out immigrants who are intent on criminal activity in the US. Other illegal immigrants simply want to have a better life and are willing to otherwise obey the law. These immigrants general take jobs that Americans won't take and they eventually start businesses, (provided that they become legal) which produces more jobs for Americans and strengthens the economy. I am opposed to the current legislation and I am glad to see the Republicans back off on some key elements of that legislation. Borders serve more a political purpose, like one nation's army crossing the border into another nation for example. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

I am also put off by the slogan-type characterizations.. Especially when you mentioned "scientific knowledge" provided by illegal immigrants coming through our open borders. Incredible allegations :) But that's fine, I am used to hearing these lies over and over in the media and from politicians. they do not surprise me. Thank you to the mighty mexican for putting cheap food on my table and preventing me from having to clean my own hotel toilet. I owe it all to the open borders. great :) But what I wanted to address from this last post.. You make a distinction that criminals should be kept out, while honest workers, should be kept in. I don't generally disagree with that, but what you describe as honest workers are actually criminals. Felons, even. They broke a law by illegally enetering. Not enough for you? How about not paying taxes? Is that not your definition of criminals? What is your definition? Lets assume that your definition is different. After all, they don;t want to hurt anyone, and are actually performing charity and self-sacrifice to carry everything we hold dear on their backs. Lets assume, for your sake that they are not criminals. So how would you determine which ones are and which ones arent, if cross-border movement is unregulated? How can you keep known violent criminals that have been deported from reentry? how do you keep well-known mexican criminals from entry? You simply can't with an open border. And furthermore, say you have a group of middle eastern motherfuckers who want to build a home depot bomb and set it off in a large US city. They obviously cant fly here and act freely (at least while republicans are in power). But they can fly to Mexico city and walk across the border. Easily. taking advantage of people like you mestiza, who heard on TV that we can't live if we replace illegal immigration w legal immigration. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor: Exactly. The biggest problem is the confusion created by media spin. Spin started by liberals, but used today by everyone. Closing the borders to illegal movement IS NOT an anti-immigration policy. In fact, immigration quotas could then be increased to offset the loss in labor. That would make all sides happy sounds like. The biggest lie propogated onto america is that a secure border is an anti-immigration stance. Do not believe the lies! :) they got like 90% of america convinced already. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

You have to be pragmatic when discussing borders. Their is no way to keep illegal immigrants out of this country or to completely secure those borders. We should certainly keep out immigrants who are intent on criminal activity in the US. Other illegal immigrants simply want to have a better life and are willing to otherwise obey the law. These immigrants general take jobs that Americans won't take and they eventually start businesses, (provided that they become legal) which produces more jobs for Americans and strengthens the economy. I am opposed to the current legislation and I am glad to see the Republicans back off on some key elements of that legislation. Borders serve more a political purpose, like one nation's army crossing the border into another nation for example. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary. Everyone who can come and leave here and obey the law - get in line, get your quota and workers visa (JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE FROM EUROPE OR INDIA OR ASIA DOES TODAY), wait 5 years and become a citizen. Why mexicans have to be better than anyone else ? Just because they live close by ?

---

- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan: On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary.

---

I think we can do even better than 99%. The ligistical difficulty is a myth. The border may be long, but it has no width. Motion detectors, or heat sensors, or a fence and a patrol every few miles. Throw in some German Shephards as a bonus. Cheaper than 99% of government projects :) EVERY OTHER COUNTRY CAN AFFORD IT. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

By the way, most countries, have Border Guard as a full branch of the national military. Or Border Police as a federal department. Or something similar. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan: Taco Bell is american company, we need to invest in some Tequila factory.... Look at the bright side, when all mexicans move here, there will be a whole empty country to the south fro us to settle -------------------

---

I just love it! ... и там.... мы - наш, мы - новый мир построим! Так? This is the brightest side I ever seen! Brilliant idea!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor: Exactly. The biggest problem is the confusion created by media spin. Spin started by liberals, but used today by everyone. Closing the borders to illegal movement IS NOT an anti-immigration policy. In fact, immigration quotas could then be increased to offset the loss in labor. That would make all sides happy sounds like. The biggest lie propogated onto america is that a secure border is an anti-immigration stance. Do not believe the lies! :) they got like 90% of america convinced already. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

You have to be pragmatic when discussing borders. Their is no way to keep illegal immigrants out of this country or to completely secure those borders. We should certainly keep out immigrants who are intent on criminal activity in the US. Other illegal immigrants simply want to have a better life and are willing to otherwise obey the law. These immigrants general take jobs that Americans won't take and they eventually start businesses, (provided that they become legal) which produces more jobs for Americans and strengthens the economy. I am opposed to the current legislation and I am glad to see the Republicans back off on some key elements of that legislation. Borders serve more a political purpose, like one nation's army crossing the border into another nation for example. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary. Everyone who can come and leave here and obey the law - get in line, get your quota and workers visa (JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE FROM EUROPE OR INDIA OR ASIA DOES TODAY), wait 5 years and become a citizen. Why mexicans have to be better than anyone else ? Just because they live close by ?

---

Sure, I guess you could secure the borders. Anybody want to build the next Great Wall of China or Berlin Wall on our borders? I bet that would really make us a free society, wouldn't it? I never knew that mexicans were better than anybody, I just figuired they are doing what all the other illegal immigrants from Europe and Asia are doing. Moving to a place where they can have a better life. Sometimes that might mean breaking or bending some rules. And we all break the rules at some point in our life, I can't think of not one person who hasn't broken the rules at some point in their life. Let he has not sinned cast the first stone. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan: On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary.

---

I think we can do even better than 99%. The ligistical difficulty is a myth. The border may be long, but it has no width. Motion detectors, or heat sensors, or a fence and a patrol every few miles. Throw in some German Shephards as a bonus. Cheaper than 99% of government projects :) EVERY OTHER COUNTRY CAN AFFORD IT. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

I guarantee you, that if we used some sort of border police, people who are famaliar with the territory will still find a way to evade those sort of border police or to find a way through, no matter what kind of security you implement. And heck, their were people who found a way over the Berlin Wall even. You can't ever completely stop people from escaping to freedom no matter what security measures you implement. People seeking freedom and a better life will always risk their lives or imprisonment to get it. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan: On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary.

---

I think we can do even better than 99%. The ligistical difficulty is a myth. The border may be long, but it has no width. Motion detectors, or heat sensors, or a fence and a patrol every few miles. Throw in some German Shephards as a bonus. Cheaper than 99% of government projects :) EVERY OTHER COUNTRY CAN AFFORD IT. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

I guarantee you, that if we used some sort of border police, people who are famaliar with the territory will still find a way to evade those sort of border police or to find a way through, no matter what kind of security you implement. And heck, their were people who found a way over the Berlin Wall even. You can't ever completely stop people from escaping to freedom no matter what security measures you implement. People seeking freedom and a better life will always risk their lives or imprisonment to get it. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

meszita, there was such a counry - USSR.. it was the biggest on Earth... it had the longest border... and only trained spies dared to cross it... because evryone in the world knew that unauthorised border penetration will result in their death... you don't need tons of police, or high fences... you just ned to declare the following: US is a sovereign country US has legal points of entry for people with visas from all over the world.. Illegal border crossing is an act of hostility towards US Anyone caught crossing the border will be shot... after that it will take few deaths of few mexicans who won't believe such a policy change... after that the border will be empty and neat... and i think it is wrong to compare this situation with berlin wall, because mexicans do not come here for freedom - they come for better jobs and better life... but not for freedom of speech and expression, not for political freedom.. and they do not run from prosecution in their own country.. and the funny thing is that it is absolutely legal for any country to prevent the unauthorised crossing of its borders by any means necessary....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KGBMan: On the contrary, it is possible to buid a secured border and stop 99% of illegal crossings. It is not expensive, it is easy and it is necessary.

---

I think we can do even better than 99%. The ligistical difficulty is a myth. The border may be long, but it has no width. Motion detectors, or heat sensors, or a fence and a patrol every few miles. Throw in some German Shephards as a bonus. Cheaper than 99% of government projects :) EVERY OTHER COUNTRY CAN AFFORD IT. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

I guarantee you, that if we used some sort of border police, people who are famaliar with the territory will still find a way to evade those sort of border police or to find a way through, no matter what kind of security you implement. And heck, their were people who found a way over the Berlin Wall even. You can't ever completely stop people from escaping to freedom no matter what security measures you implement. People seeking freedom and a better life will always risk their lives or imprisonment to get it. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

---

Seeking freedom from what? Underground life in the US, not even having a drivers license, being constantly on the run from the law, and unable to get most services is less freedom than they had at home. Better life - maybe. Its a nuanced question. As they say - to each his own. But mostly what they are seeking is tax free dollars. Lets be honest about that. That is all they are seeking. Not worth imprisonment. Definititely not worth life. The worst they face now is deportation and having to come back in on foot. It is worth THAT, but not much more. Trust me. As far as a few people trying to get through - fine. Bring 'em on, as the saying goes :) And nobody will "know the area well" aftrer years go by. Rasp, you are my hero by the way. just for the day. :) "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

“The biggest problem is the confusion created by media spin. Spin started by liberals, but used today by everyone. Closing the borders to illegal movement IS NOT an anti-immigration policy.” All spin aside, if there are quotas on how many cookies I can eat, as opposed to open-mouth policy between me and the cookie jar, quotas are an anti-cookie policy. Spin comes in when I call my mom a cookie-hater J Thank you for complementing my post, Egor :-) But come on, if we agree on the American Business Party thing (ABP) why descent to ideological bickering? Liberals this, conservatives that -- same shit different name, we need them both. Party out of power is always loud and tries to demonstrate its power (mainly to itself) by throwing the most poo. It works in the monkey kingdom and it works in politics :-) In fact in our republic it is the sacred duty and a sound marketing strategy for a party out of power to keep a close eye on the party in power and present what they see in a crisis format. So lets not bash ideology, lets get informed and bash people who push stupid ideas under its cover (...not to point fingers at upturned elephants...). As to the benefit of Mexicans (legal and illegal) come checkout Marshall’s on the crossing of Buford and Dresden. Behind the store there is a mall that is not advertised from the outside. I discovered it yesterday and took advantage of cheap labor and cut to length my pants (I guess market just doesn’t support 29/32 size). It bright, clean, adobe-colored and full of entrepreneurs, there is a nice indian-style fountain i the middle. The only word in English was EXIT over the doors. And to you Razpizdyaj I can say this: The moral implications of what you are proposing will be worse then those of Iraq war. Not to mention making business for McDonalds and other American companies sucking profit from overseas and relying on the good will of the natives more difficult. The danger of the borders is definitely CLEAR but it is not PRESENT. Its either the terrorists haven’t yet discovered the route or coyotes funneling illegals do not want to crap in their own pool by smuggling someone who wants to attract public attention (by blowing things up). Those criminals who do come over from Mexico are hardly a danger to National Security even if they sodomize me on my own porch. Have fun! Jedem Das Seine.

---

Jedem Das Seine.

Orkster, the reason i play the blame game here with both parties is because they are ultimately responsible and accountable. We have our opinions, but we are powerless against the branwashed masses. Here is how i see it.. As i said earlier, neither party wants to lose the hispanic vote. Especially with all recent elections being so close (which i don't expect to change even w democrats possibly taking over), losing the hispanic vote is political suicide. On the flipside, you have the vote of americans who USED to know the meaning of sovereignty. Losing them is not good either, but the ruling parties can manipulate them with lies. Mindlessly repeated slogans we see in this topic, don't even require justification. People just repeat them - they've memorized them and don't have to think. "illegal immigration puts cheap food on our tables" "illegal immigrants are harmless and law-abiding" "illegal immigrants are essential to our economy" "illegal immigrants will get through no matter what" "secure borders are anti-immigration" "secure borders are racist" and so on. All of this was started by politicians who want to have it both ways. The media repeats it. The people repeat it. And it becomes the truth. You seem to agree with one of these at least. That secure borders are anti-immigration. But if immigration is essential to business (which is true, only the "illegal" part thrown in there is the lie), raise the quotas to accomodate whatever these national business needs are. the actual number of immigrants does not have to change if the business/economy argument is true! Hell we could even increase the total number if its that helpful to both sides. I am sure there are a lot of Mexicans who would like to come over, but have families, children, or other perfectly reasonable concerns about walking through a freaking desert and living like fugitives. So how is this anti immigration? this is PRO immigration. Right now, instead of normal people like that, we get thugs and rejects. No wonder Mexico doesn't want any changes. We are their human garbage can. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

________________________________________
"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor: Orkster, the reason i play the blame game here with both parties is because they are ultimately responsible and accountable. We have our opinions, but we are powerless against the branwashed masses. Here is how i see it.. As i said earlier, neither party wants to lose the hispanic vote. Especially with all recent elections being so close (which i don't expect to change even w democrats possibly taking over), losing the hispanic vote is political suicide. On the flipside, you have the vote of americans who USED to know the meaning of sovereignty. Losing them is not good either, but the ruling parties can manipulate them with lies. Mindlessly repeated slogans we see in this topic, don't even require justification. People just repeat them - they've memorized them and don't have to think. "illegal immigration puts cheap food on our tables" "illegal immigrants are harmless and law-abiding" "illegal immigrants are essential to our economy" "illegal immigrants will get through no matter what" "secure borders are anti-immigration" "secure borders are racist" and so on. All of this was started by politicians who want to have it both ways. The media repeats it. The people repeat it. And it becomes the truth. You seem to agree with one of these at least. That secure borders are anti-immigration. But if immigration is essential to business (which is true, only the "illegal" part thrown in there is the lie), raise the quotas to accomodate whatever these national business needs are. the actual number of immigrants does not have to change if the business/economy argument is true! Hell we could even increase the total number if its that helpful to both sides. I am sure there are a lot of Mexicans who would like to come over, but have families, children, or other perfectly reasonable concerns about walking through a freaking desert and living like fugitives. So how is this anti immigration? this is PRO immigration. Right now, instead of normal people like that, we get thugs and rejects. No wonder Mexico doesn't want any changes. We are their human garbage can. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

---

You are making sense on this issue and I like that you are suggesting an expansion of legal immigration rather than a reduction of all immigration. Because I am so horrified by comments like "America for Americans" and "those d*** foreigners are stealing our jobs", I tend to be buy into the slogans, but you are convincing me. You are very persuasive lately.