James, I've been trying to tell you this all along.  Smarter decisions are made in the first place, when consequences are weighed on a personal level.  US had that in WW2, and lord knows the USSR did. Now - not even a puny war tax..  This creates an artificial support for a cause in the public, especially when combined with propaganda about what we are doing and the likelihood of success. 

I've always weighed this war in terms of what i would personally sacrifice for its goals, even if i believed their achievement was likely.  I was willing to sacrifice maybe a war tax (so more than 99% of conservative war supporters).  That's even while disagreeing with it, mind you.  I care about my country, and know I could be wrong.  But not my life, or any other human being.  There are worthier causes.  Even given the same goals.

 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

412:

Exactly! Let's send Bush's daughters to Iraq.

 

as who ?  

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

KGBMan:

 

as who ?  

LOL, let your imagination run wild.

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до чего картинки у тя пошлые, доктор

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

ok, I knew I'd respond to this eventually :)

James Bond:

I think McCain is all 'Establishment'.

Bought and paid for.

With Lobbyist skeletons in his closet.

If there is any evidence that Obama isn't, i certainly missed it.  He is just not asked or pressured.  What's worse, the "establishment" obama is part of is far scarier to me, and to mainstream America.  So he is smart enough not to discuss it in public. 

At least McCain has a history of standing up to the very establishment he is accused of being a part of.  And not just standing up for shits and giggles, but often being right in the end.  Obama has no such instances (as far as I know), and on the war he simply followed the leftist extremists, who are in fact - his establishment. 

James Bond:

In fact, I'm guessing the situation now is this:  he is the Republican nomintation, and now the Left is attacking him (very effectively) and suddenly the conservatives realize they need to support him financially or the Democrats will win.  I'm hoping I am right that it's far too late to help McCain.  Far too late.  Personally, I could care less about the far right republicans - a bunch of ass*ho*les.  So, let Obama win. 

What about the far left liberals?  They scare you less?  Obama is much closer to them than McCain is to the far right.  You can see that by the reaction of both to their presumptive nominees.  I hate the far right even more than you do (i think ), but on the things I hate about them most, so does McCain.  On the things I hate the far left for - Obama is right there with them.

James Bond:

I'm quite sure the NY Times is right on, 

Yeah, they know to anticipate your reaction, which is why they did it.  They are a vile, cowardly, publication.

James Bond:

and I'm guessing old McCain did have a little fun with that hot number 30 years younger than him. 

He's human after all. 

Maybe so.  I don't care.  I know others may, so the media shouldn't cover for him, if they have something.  But they have nothing.

James Bond:

 It doesn't mean he isn't a great American war hero.  But that's not what we need right now. 

I'd say, now more then ever.  But I see what you are saying also.  You like to risk things, when there is really no need.  Electing a liberal right now, is equivalent to going into Iraq.  In terms of judgement and risktaking for dubious abstract fairy-tail rewards, that are not even logically verbalized to begin with.

James Bond:

We need somebody that puts America first.  Not themselves.  Not the lobbyists.  Not the Party.  But Joe Average American. 

I don't know that any country has ever had a president that fits this, I certainly think McCain is closer to it than Obama.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Obama is new establishmentm, McCain is old !

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Right on.  Let's debate.

I could take the 'easy' path and just say 'Egor - if you vote for McCain you will have blood on your hands for extending the war in Iraq for another 100 years'.  But that's not really how I see it.

You see, people died under a Dictator, and now they are dying under an occupation.  When things are good in America, I'm more willing to pay for our "Supremecist/Imperialist" campaigns.  Every country has a duty to look out for itself first.  But, this is not a good time in America.  In fact, it's a terrible time.  And so it's time for a Paradigm Shift in our Defense.  Instead of paying more than the rest of the world, COMBINED, in defense, it's time to get our goddamn economy back on track and invest those dollars in America.  Why the f*ck do we still have bases in Europe?  IF we are going to pay Airbus billions for their aircraft which can fly around the world, then why do we need to spend billons keeping bases in Europe?  geezus, it's just ridiculous.

Now, my argument may sound like it's just about defense.  But it's not.  It's about the 60,000 people that got laid off last month (yep, I saw that coming).  IT's about the recession going on all this year and well into next year.  It's about people in this country who have never lived through a recession going out and shooting people out of frustration because we have become an American Idol Dillusional society where nothing bad ever happens cuz we all live such blessed lives.  All that is changing, and the 60,000 that just got laid off are the first wave.  Lot's more to come. 

We need a Paradigh Shift and we need it now - it's all about the Fierce Urgency of Now.

Obama is the only candidate who can get us away from politics as usual.

 

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

JB,

 US bases around the globe are there to make sure US dollar is the world currency, if you pull them out US dollar will be worth nothing and world currency will be Euro or Yen or even Yuan.

US is not industrial country anymore it doesn't produce anything real, virtual economy has to be supported by something and that something are US bases and US aircraft carriers.....

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

James Bond:

Right on.  Let's debate.

So where's the debate?

That was a like a pre-rehersed stump speech, I don't really see a response to my points.  Maybe I am so full of it, its not necessary, i don't know

My general response to the "stump speech" is the lack of substance.  You listed problems.  Some of which would not have arised had you not supported those policies in the first place.  But whatever, that's hindsight. I am all for focusing on the future, even got nothing agains a healthy dose of hope and audacity .  Nothing wrong with that. 

But, look, he is perhaps the most liberal politician in Congress (by voting record). He is just going to get in the oval office, and practice his "audacity" to build the country you've always spoken out against here. Reasoning doesn't seem to work well with you, you lose focus of the topic.  But this does? So all I had to do in our previous discussions was stop reasoning and employ hypnosis?

On the McCain causing more people to die, I firmly believe that he will cause fewer.  Leaving Iraq without weighing options and considerations is worse than doing nothing at all, actually.  Though both are bad, but McCain will weigh options and use judgement.  Obama may have it, but he can't use it here, he's already made promises.  Yeah, I think its WW3 if we leave now, but i realize that's a hard sell.  At the very least its a counter-productive step in the sense that it is a repeat of so many foreign policy errors where we train people, arm them, and leave them in a power vacuum and chaos where they organize, recruit, cross-train, create relationship and alliances.  Then we fight them again.  And the next time, we have less of a choice.  Watch it.  You'll see.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

What can I say? You are sounding MUCH more reasonable as a Republican than as a Democrat. You know what really pushed me over the edge? Making too much money to get that tax rebate check that everybody else is getting. Huh? That was it. I say tax the mother-f*ckin rich if I don't qualify for that damn rebate check. So, I vote for Obama for a few reasons: 1. Pull out of Iraq and save us billions a month (or however much it costs in money and blood). Let the 'natives' figure it out, and since we pay billions more to the UN, let them go back in and fix sh*t. 2, Raise taxes back up on the Rich (reverse the George W. Bush tax cuts that he wants permanent). Cuz, guess what, Bush's supply-side "Rich Man Tax Cuts" haven't kgenerated enough new jobs or worked cuz we are headed into a recession (maybe a depression - that will be f*ckin fun). And guess who made the most money over that last 10 or 15 years of economic growth? - the mother f*ckin rich- so let them pay to fix things. God I hate the rich. If you think I sound radical then consider this - in the 1770's in Paris people got SICK of seeing the wealthy say 'let them eat bread' and within a few months, most of the French Aristocrat lost track of their heads. That's what I'm talking about. Where is that vitamin store guy married to a russian girl - the Anarchist. He needs to be piping in. I was kinda kidding about Obama 6 months ago....

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

James Bond:

  And guess who made the most money over that last 10 or 15 years of economic growth? - the mother f*ckin rich- so let them pay to fix things. God I hate the rich.

You know, this is exactly why someone decided you ain't gettin the check.  How come when it comes to hating the rich, people only hate everyone richer than them? :) So Bill Gates probably hates only Warren Buffet, and they are both pissed they are not getting the check

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

So you gave up defending McCain?

I'm getting a bunch back in taxes, so I'm feeling better about that.  And yes, I only hate the rich until I get rich, and then I'll move to Paris.

Look, McCain is too old.  Our economy is in shambles.  Even if he picks Romney, his only hope, I may still vote for Obama to get us out  of Iraq quicker.

Sunni's adn Shia's have been killing each other for hundreds/thousands of years - you think McCain can fix that sh*t?

He can't even keep the names straight.

Obama = Change.

Yeah, baby

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

JB, Obama hates Russia, McCain has the biggest russophobe alive as adviser, so I'm gona vote for Clinton, she has no balls to stand against Putin ;)

 

 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

James Bond:

So you gave up defending McCain?

for now..  That Iran snafu was disturbing.

James Bond:

Look, McCain is too old.  Our economy is in shambles.  Even if he picks Romney, his only hope, I may still vote for Obama to get us out of Iraq quicker.

That's what conservatives say, about Romney.  Conservatives are not deciding this election (or any election), so I would not pick Romney if I were him.  I would pick a centrist foreign policy intellectual.  Economy is cyclical, we give too much credit to presidents and even things like tax adjustments.  Economy just cycles like it doesn't give a f*ck.

James Bond:

  

Sunni's adn Shia's have been killing each other for hundreds/thousands of years - you think McCain can fix that sh*t?

So were catholics and protestants.  

Everything that's happening now is a direct result of poor judgement on our part.  We underestimate ourselves.  They are now our petri dish  whether we like it or not, and have been for way too long.  And you don;t run from the lab when something scary starts growing. There are good opportunities to distance ourselves, but to take advantage of these opportunities, we must present ourselves with options and use judgement.  The word "regardless" should not enter the discourse.  Its was how the invasion happened in the first place, and that's how the dems want to withdraw.  We should always use judgement rather than a pre-determined script written for us by our enemies.  Judgement us our strongest weapon, that's been getting rusty.

James Bond:

Obama = Change.

Yeah, baby

I was just a skeptic before, but now I am actually against Obama.  I thought this was going to be a rare election where I could actually live with multiple candidates becoming president.  But its beginning to look like the usual.  I was just naive

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

KGBMan:

JB, Obama hates Russia, McCain has the biggest russophobe alive as adviser, so I'm gona vote for Clinton, she has no balls to stand against Putin ;)

I disagree about her balls, but its true she has said the least bad things about Putin.  But don't read too much into it.  She will at a convenient opportunity.  Americans are rearely united on anything, but they are united here.  And its not russia, its their government.  They would all moderate in a different situation - american public is not interested in another cold war.  This is all just reactionary and predictable, and it won't matter who is US president.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский