Egor:

according to tradition, Russian men require 5 minutes to complete a forum post.

But to make things fair, American women are allowed to completely delete their own posts for unspecified amounts of time.

I'll respond to that in three more minutes. 

Egor:

according to tradition, Russian men require 5 minutes to complete a forum post.

But to make things fair, American women are allowed to completely delete their own posts for unspecified amounts of time.

Time is up.

You noticed I have been deleting?  I thought I had been fairly stealthy about that lately. 

I am omnipotent, Leah.

On the "harshness" of my comment - what is harsh?  If anyone asks their grandmother why she spent hours a day in the kitchen all her life (irrespective of whether or not she worked fulltime outside the home), she will say "because I love my family and am responsible for them".  You ask a grandfather why he performed had physical labor for his family, despite working fulltime, he will say "because I love my family and am responsible for them".  You then try to frame it differently to make the confused old people understand all the complexities of fairness and divisions as we see them today.. And they look at you like you are a dumbass.  Of course it was unfair.  And both sides could make that case if they wanted to - men or women.  Yet, even given the full privelege of hidsight, they know they cared about what mattered and didn't care about what didn't.   We've totally flipped that.  Which would be fine, had it not made a harmonious stable family completely unachievable.  This applies to the earlier "privacy" discussion we had too. 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

And the irony, (there's always irony) is that there was no need for any of this.  Hours of cooking is replaced by minutes (unless you have a hobby), physical labor is almost gone.  There was no need for any of this.. at all.  Our grandparents would be the happiest people of the universe had they had our technology.  ANd we can't even experience it.  We have to police who cleans the toilet, and carefully monitor countless additional instances of invented unfairness in our lives. 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Egor:

I am omnipotent, Leah.

On the "harshness" of my comment - what is harsh?  If anyone asks their grandmother why she spent hours a day in the kitchen all her life (irrespective of whether or not she worked fulltime outside the home), she will say "because I love my family and am responsible for them".  You ask a grandfather why he performed had physical labor for his family, despite working fulltime, he will say "because I love my family and am responsible for them".  You then try to frame it differently to make the confused old people understand all the complexities of fairness and divisions as we see them today.. And they look at you like you are a dumbass.  Of course it was unfair.  And both sides could make that case if they wanted to - men or women.  Yet, even given the full privelege of hidsight, they know they cared about what mattered and didn't care about what didn't.   We've totally flipped that.  Which would be fine, had it not made a harmonious stable family completely unachievable.  This applies to the earlier "privacy" discussion we had too. 

Harsh because you seem to have meant (and do correct me if I am wrong) that a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work just because she is a woman is being ridiculous and should either suck it up or get a divorce.  Harsh because you seem to think I am ridiculous for even posting the topic questioning that gender division.

If I am understanding you correctly, you think that by even questioning these traditional roles, the focus is on something unimportant and, thus, questioning this (or expecting a partner to respect privacy in the other topic) is incompatible with a harmonious stable family. 

Sorry, but I don't think wanting an adult, reasonably equal partnership instead of a "Little House on the Prairie" reenactment makes me incapable of a harmonious stable family.  I hope I am misunderstanding you (that does seem to happen sometimes), because this is what I am hearing when I read your posts.

Leah:

because you seem to have meant (and do correct me if I am wrong) that a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work just because she is a woman is being ridiculous and should either suck it up or get a divorce. 

 i think that's exactly what he thought:-) ...ok, at least that's what I thought:-)

i think it's more than just being "a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work". it all boils down to "do i want (potentially) this woman be the mother of my children?"

any "whining" about "all this drudge work" pretty much immediately disqualifies her... so she goes down in this unwritten/unspoken classification scheme from being a potential mate to being ..well, just a good lay ( <--- best case scenario:-)

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Leah:

Harsh because you seem to have meant (and do correct me if I am wrong) that a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work just because she is a woman is being ridiculous and should either suck it up or get a divorce. 

What is the alternative? Counseling?  This is obviously an unsurmountable incompatibility you are describing.  "drudge work" is a relative term, if the guy just does nothing, and she works her ass off, what is the third alternative?  Some will suck it up, some will get a divorce. I guess you could also constantly fight about it and keep on living that way.. I don't know.  I don't even know why this is not apparent before marriage - these situations we often talk about on the forum are all completely hypothetical to me.  I would never be in them.

Leah:

Harsh because you seem to think I am ridiculous for even posting the topic questioning that gender division.

I am just giving my opinion, you agree with about 150,000,000 American women, and even more around the world.  All I know is how I feel about it. 

Leah:

 

If I am understanding you correctly, you think that by even questioning these traditional roles, the focus is on something unimportant and, thus, questioning this (or expecting a partner to respect privacy in the other topic) is incompatible with a harmonious stable family. 

Yes, that is I am saying.  When you hear people fighting about household chores, you will usually observe each side exaggerating their own contributions and downplaying the contributions of the spouse.  That environment does not have a setting for equality, by definition.   It is why communism didn't work :)  Until numerical values can be placed on each chore (by importance, or by effort), and each side is represented by an attorney and a a jury of peers renders a judgement, there is no win, no harmony, no happiness.  And even if you had all that what have you *really* won?  Certainly not a happy home.

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

pomidorchik:

Leah:

because you seem to have meant (and do correct me if I am wrong) that a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work just because she is a woman is being ridiculous and should either suck it up or get a divorce. 

 i think that's exactly what he thought:-) ...ok, at least that's what I thought:-)

i think it's more than just being "a woman who doesn't want to be stuck with all the drudge work". it all boils down to "do i want (potentially) this woman be the mother of my children?"

any "whining" about "all this drudge work" pretty much immediately disqualifies her... so she goes down in this unwritten/unspoken classification scheme from being a potential mate to being ..well, just a good lay ( <--- best case scenario:-)

exactly, Pom.

And women should look for exactly the same things in their potential mates as well. 

 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

I see.  Well, in that case I will cross Pomidorchik and Egor off of my list of potentially interesting men, since I seem to have disqualified myself by even posting this topic.

(And, by the way, neither of you are allowed on my island now.) 

All of this is entirely theoretical.  You boys are making things sound a lot worse than they really are.

In reality, a lot of Russian men like to cook and make spectacular chefs; there are a lot of couples where the man and the woman take turns, depending on schedules.  When no one feels like cooking there is always the convenient backup of going out/take-out/delivery...

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

And again, more irony: It is men who agree w me and Pom who would be more likely to take on more stuff around the house just to let their woman relax more, and can't stand to see their woman working harder than them.  Well, I guess I can't speak for Pom

I don;t care about fairness, but I can't focus on the TV when a woman is vacuuming around me.  The vacuum is too loud. 

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"Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

Bagel Roll:

All of this is entirely theoretical.  You boys are making things sound a lot worse than they really are.

darn, you are right:-) but we were addressing a theoretical question:-)

Leah! you broke my heart, babe!

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Leah, just smile and agree to everything. 

Just kidding.  But I would think that Russian men would be more interested in women who they know take pleasure in caring of them... when all is said and done, they are very conscientious and end up contributing more than many American men (Americans, in my experience, start taking things for granted very quickly instead of feeling "guilty" when the woman does the work).  Of course, I'm generalizing...

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.

Egor:

And again, more irony:

Man, the even bigger irony is that i myself end up cooking most of the time:-)

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pomidorchik:

Egor:

And again, more irony:

Man, the even bigger irony is that i myself end up cooking most of the time:-)

I knew it! 

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Gou ni itte wa, gou ni shitagae.